Episode Transcript
Don (00:00)
there is a value to what obviously clients provide and what
they do, right? And there's a value to what we do and what we provide for them, right? To help them get to where they want to go. You know, I guess it's kind of under the umbrella of once we get them to where they need to go, And are successful. It's time to, you know, fly away little dog. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (00:16)
Yeah. Well, it's like your kids are, yeah,
Don (00:43)
And we're back Rob episode 157 157 ⁓
Rob (00:48)
157. Not a lot you can say
about 157. It's just kind of another number. There's nothing. I was trying to come up with something sweet enough.
Don (00:54)
Now we say this at the beginning of every episode. There's not like there's nothing until we
hit 175, you know, so.
Rob (01:00)
some sort of ⁓ cultural reference. I got nothing.
Don (01:03)
Does,
let me put this out there. Does it even matter what episode number it is? Does it even matter?
Rob (01:10)
Well, I like to believe that there are a lot of fans that are chomping at the bit for the next episode and they may be like, oh my God, 157 is out. Did you hear 157 is out?
Don (01:16)
Yeah, yeah. Well, there's
definitely something to that. There's the you know, we got to organize things somehow. We're humans, we have to like put things in boxes and put them in chronological order. And we're obsessive about order. I know. So yeah, I don't know.
Rob (01:30)
Numeric, what else are you going to do? All right,
well, you might think that today's topic of discussion is a bummer when I tell you what it is, but it's actually not a bummer. Right? ⁓ I thought today we would talk about ⁓ breaking up with clients. going call it breaking up with clients. And sometimes that can be a positive thing.
Don (01:39)
⁓
Okay, I'm here for it.
Okay.
This is,
this is a little, yeah. this a, is this tab? It's not taboo. This is salacious.
Rob (01:58)
Yeah.
No, this is the real world that we live in. And I would venture to guess that oftentimes companies, depending on the circumstance, but as their agencies, be it design or advertising or otherwise, ⁓ oftentimes we are the first to go. We're the low hanging fruit when consultants come in or
Don (02:03)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
What do mean when it comes to like budget?
Rob (02:28)
reorgs happen or budgets get tightened or operations
Don (02:28)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (02:31)
get centralized or whatever the case may be. But oftentimes we are the first ones on the chopping.
Don (02:33)
Yeah.
Rob (02:41)
And so, but I'm curious to ask.
Don (02:42)
Why do you think that is?
Let me do a quick timeout. Why do you think that is? Just out of curiosity.
Rob (02:47)
⁓ It's a fair question. I think it's because oftentimes, and I think especially more and more so, ⁓ sometimes, depending on the work that we're doing for them, sometimes it is difficult to give a hardline ROI, right? In the type of work that we do, right? If somebody says, hey, we spent, you know,
Don (02:49)
I mean, I've got my thoughts, but.
Rob (03:13)
On graphic design, we spent, let's say, know, $50,000 redoing their identity and it's difficult for internally for them or an outside consultant or whomever to come in and go, okay, well that $50,000 generated X amount of revenue. And I think more and more companies are being held accountable. Data is so much more available. And I mean, and I don't know that that's the right answer, but that's, that's unanswered. think sometimes it's difficult to quantify the type of work that we do.
Don (03:28)
Yeah. Understood. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (03:44)
I would say. What would you say?
Don (03:47)
I think it's a variety pack of, there is no one silver bullet, of course, as to why ⁓ marketing gets cut initially. But I think from an agency perspective, we've always hammered on the fact that it is a relationship and trust-based business and you do your best business when there's trust, right? I think to a certain extent, to piggyback off what you're saying about it's hard to quantify.
Exactly what we do right we are also coupled with being siloed with only one corner of the executive leadership team, right and I think we have a great relationship potentially with with team members and directors and things on ELT's right But then they have to then go and explain that to the rest of the ELT as to why they need XYZ money right and I think a lot of people you know, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but like
Rob (04:19)
That's right.
Don (04:40)
it is sometimes the internal cell can fail, right? In terms of trying to explain why it's justified in the money versus like operations or ⁓ human head count. And there's other things that like universally everybody can understand in principle, right? But it's much easier to go, hey man, give that department a 30 % whack-a-roo, you know what I mean? And then just expect everything to still,
Rob (04:54)
Say hello. ⁓
Don (05:09)
keep going. You know what mean? Like, we're going to increase sales, but we're going to cut all this. it's, know, like, people don't really understand that. It's very interesting. So.
Rob (05:10)
Right. Right.
Right.
I think also too, you're right, it's a relationship.
you know, relationship based business that we're in. And a lot of times too, you'll have ⁓ a new CMO comes in and goes, no, I'm going to, I have my preferred guys that I work with and, trust with another team outside of just, you know, strictly budgets being cut. You'll have that. And the good news there is we have such great relationships that when our, then when the former CMO lands somewhere else, hopefully we, you know, they do the same for us and take us elsewhere.
Don (05:36)
Yeah. Yeah, they have trust with another team. Yeah. Yeah.
Sure. Sure. Sure.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for
sure.
Rob (05:56)
I think. ⁓ But you
Don (05:57)
Anyway, I totally
interrupted your train of thought with the question.
Rob (06:02)
I don't know where I was going with that other than to say, ⁓ you know, and sometimes it's, I think also too in general, our relationships are, you know, there's obvious exceptions to anything, but they're oftentimes not long-term relationships, right? I mean, we have great clients that we've had for, you a decade or more for sure. But oftentimes they come in and it's a two year, three year.
Don (06:04)
no.
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (06:28)
you know, relationship and then boom, somebody goes to another place. ⁓ And then sometimes I feel like, you know, and especially maybe with a shop of our size, I don't know, you might not agree with this, but as companies grow, we're really good at taking companies from here to here. And at some point along the way, they they outgrow us. Right.
Don (06:54)
Sure,
Rob (06:55)
⁓ And
Don (06:55)
sure.
Rob (06:56)
that can be in terms of just pure head count, right? Meaning sometimes as companies get bigger and bigger, they're like, no, no, no, we need more bodies to be doing things. And we can argue whether or not that's, you know, apropos or not, ⁓ but that certainly happens. And I think in the case of you know, the client that I was thinking of in particular, we're not gonna name any names, of course, but ⁓ it was just that. was, started, we had a great,
Don (07:01)
Yeah, absolutely.
Rob (07:21)
I'm going to call it six year relationship with this particular client and took them from, were incredibly successful working with them and took them from here to here, you know, really over those six years. And I think it got to a point where, ⁓ there, there, ⁓ it was a classic case of, here, comes the consultant. And, know, we always go, that's never good when the phone comes in. So the consultant came in and.
Don (07:33)
total it.
Rob (07:52)
And all of a sudden it feels like, I don't wanna say we felt marginalized, that seems extreme, but in a way, sometimes it feels like that. ⁓ But it's, we need to cut this and we need to cut this and we need to cut this. But we wanna keep you guys on, we wanna keep the relationship going just under this different set of criteria. And I think that's where what's important is the power of saying no, right? And I think as you're...
Don (08:19)
Yeah, absolutely.
Rob (08:21)
you know, as you're growing your agency over the years, there's a fear of saying no, right? ⁓ cause you're like, well, no, we can't, I can't turn down business. can't turn down business, but you get to a point where, know, you, you've, you've had this great success. You've had this, this good relationship. And then all of sudden you're being asked to do things that are, that are potentially slightly unreasonable from our point of view. ⁓ and the nature or dynamic of the relationship changes and, and you just have to say, I think we're done. It's not you. It's me. Right.
Don (08:27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Rob (08:50)
It's like breaking
up with your high school sweetheart, right? Which is, it's not you, it's me. Let's still be friends.
Don (08:59)
Yeah. Hey,
for me, I think it was just everybody went off to college. You know what mean? Yeah. No, hear you. I think that we are very authentic in who we are. And I think that there's definitely there's truth in what you're saying in regards to we have our sweet spot, right? And we have our we're very good at our things, right?
Rob (09:04)
Everybody went off to college. Yeah, yeah. And we tried to make it work for a few months and it just come Christmas time, we're done here.
Don (09:24)
And yeah, we have some clients we've had for 15 years, you know, and we've spoken about, our methodology, the way that we work. And once clients get used to the way that we work, right, they love the way that we work and they can't go anywhere else. And that's part of the trust, right? But to your earlier point about, hey, some clients we have for a year or two, you know, and that's because they don't need everything that we do for them every single year. We're not going to rebrand a company and redo all of their packaging and redo all of their, you know, like, it's like, okay, we did it.
Rob (09:47)
That's right.
Don (09:54)
That was awesome. know, yeah, like, here's your 200 skews to go into retail. Here's your global brand standards guideline. Here are all your files. Here's all your stuff. Like, ⁓ we're still here, but you don't. Yeah, you're not going to do that again. You know what mean? I mean, so there's there are some clients or some projects where it's hey, if we do a really great job, we we we work ourselves out of our own business to a certain extent, right? Because it's like you don't need.
Rob (09:54)
We did it. Yeah.
but you don't really need us for anything.
Right.
Don (10:22)
you know, a brand new website every year, right? If we do our job appropriately, it should last for a number of years, right? So it is, you know, yeah, we have our sweet spot and we have our, hey, we get people from here to here. And that's because we have done the work on the authenticity of what makes us successful and what we do really well. And that's what we share with clients, right? We were just on a, I know we're not talking about this, but we were just on a discovery call with a client who's at their five-year anniversary trying to figure out who they are, right?
And I don't know if you thought about this, ⁓ because we obviously didn't mention it on the call with the client there, but I was thinking about when we did that for us as well, where it's like, hey, we've been in business for five years. The market is dictating kind of who we are versus us telling people who the market, who we are to the market, right? And they were talking about lack of clarity, not people knowing who they are. If you asked all these different people what they do, they'd give them different answers. And it's like, man, that is exactly what...
most companies go through, but also what we went through, right? And then that helped shape who we are and what we're good at and what we can do, right? ⁓ And yeah, oftentimes, that works really, really well for a continual retainer-based client where this is what you need, this is what we do, bam, this is a great marriage. But, know. ⁓
Rob (11:22)
Yep. Yeah.
Don (11:47)
to your point, hey, a consultant comes in and wants to maybe start changing things and start operational efficiency type scenario and stuff like that. And the power of no is a good thing for everybody, right? Because it's, hey, you're not now in a bad relationship, but it's also, hey, this is what's best for you, but it's also what's best for us, that type of thing. So, yeah.
Rob (11:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And I mean, not
to get too armchair, psychiatrist, but it's like, like anything else, we'll use the relationship analogy, the high school sweetheart analogy, but like, it kind of hurts at first, know, but it's, better in the long run. And then you, you can, you know, you take a minute, you take a beat and sit with it for a little bit. And then you go, you know what? This is something to be proud of. This is a great, this is a great run. And, and, you know,
Don (12:14)
Hey, bring it.
Sure, sure.
Rob (12:37)
you look back on it fondly and it was, everybody agrees it was super successful. just was time to, just was time to part ways.
Don (12:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, we haven't, we've been very fortunate, I think, over the years to not really have to deal with that situation too often. You know, I'm thinking of, yeah, there was one other one, which I'm sure we've told this story at some point in 157 episodes about letting go of our biggest client at the time, right? But it like, it had to be done, right? Yeah, I mean, this is different than that, but that was like, yeah, we've been through three different directors. it was just a, it was just a, it was a bad.
Rob (12:52)
Not too often.
It had to be done, yeah.
Don (13:16)
It was a bad relationship, a bad girlfriend. And that was scary for a different reason, but that one had to go. But everything was better on the other side of that.
Rob (13:18)
Yeah.
That's right. Hard to see at the moment sometimes, but it always
is. But I think also too, you know, you and I were just talking about, what's it called Savannah banana, Canada banana. I forget what it is. They had a banana. Yeah. ⁓ which for those, yeah, it's Gemini's, ⁓ Google's AI image creation tool. ⁓ but it but I think that, that
Don (13:38)
nano banana, nano banana, the Gemini AI. ⁓ Yeah.
Rob (13:52)
That's also true. I think in this day and age, you're going to see more and more of, if I'm predicting the future, you're absolutely going to see more companies bringing teams in-house ⁓ because they feel like, we've got all these great tools and we can do all of this stuff in-house. And that's not to argue that point because I think that absolutely they will be able to do that because it will enable them to do
a lot of things in house. Now, that's not to put us out of business. I think, yeah, yeah. But I think you're gonna see more of that just based on all the tools that are coming out and the technology and everything that's happening. mean, you just
Don (14:23)
There's always been in-house teams, forever, since forever.
Yeah, mean, you know, there is a level of acceptable quality, right? And you get an internal team and it's good enough, right? ⁓ A photographer we use all the time that ⁓ I know I've quoted before, know, mediocrity is the new excellence, right? And a lot of AI tools will only get better, right? But it is just ⁓ mediocrity, but it is acceptable, right? And so,
What the future of our businesses who knows I mean maybe it's more in the strategic consulting and the outside perspective. It's not just it's not just production and design anymore because that will be kind of relegated, you know. ⁓ But it's it's everywhere and it's acceptable. I got an email from I got an email from my ⁓ school Superintendent Administrator and it was four or five paragraphs of garbledygook nothing right? First thing I did was I put it into AI detector.
Rob (15:13)
I think that's what it is.
Right.
Don (15:35)
This is the superintendent of our entire school district, right? Came back 54 % AI generated, right? It's just acceptable now. This is the superintendent of who is educating our children, you know what mean? But it was, so, know, Nano Banana, which by the way, goes to prove that you could literally name anything, anything now. Like, it doesn't even matter what you name anything. If you can get away with,
Rob (15:42)
Yo yo.
Never been in. Yeah.
Don (16:04)
being a multi trillion dollar company and name your thing, you know, nano banana, right? I mean, yeah, well, MailChimp, but when MailChimp started, was all monkey, it was all like chimpanzees and monkeys and apes and bananas and stuff, you know what mean? And at least it had mail in it, right? And it's, you know, I mean, it was, yeah, yeah, nano banana. I mean, my word, you know, ⁓ I kind of lost myself on my own train of thought here, but it's the mediocrity.
Rob (16:09)
Well, MailChimp... I mean...
Right.
At least it had mail. Right. Right.
Well, you were talking about the AI.
Don (16:32)
Yeah, the mediocrity of being the new X like some of that internal production stuff is just going to go internal, right? ⁓ There is a, know, clients will always have a value sense or a tipping scale, right of, hey, how many people are actually working on my business? Should I bring those people in house or not? You know what mean? It's like, I've got an agency team that has seven people working on my business every single day. I
have a fixed cost, I don't have to pay for their benefits and their health, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's totally a value versus when does that tipping point occur to I can deal with the lack of quality. ⁓ And then also, by the way, someone has to manage all those people, ⁓ but it's more cost effective to bring it in house.
Rob (17:17)
Yeah. I mean, I think
that I think what you're going to see since we're going down this path is you will see.
a lot of lower level agency work being brought in-house. And here's what I mean by that. If you're a social agency, you're absolutely using AI to write social posts. And I'm not going to sit here and say that's, you shouldn't do that, you can't do that, you shouldn't do that. Of course you should do that. That's a new tool and you can use it and use it effectively. ⁓ But I think you're gonna have...
Don (17:38)
Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (17:50)
I think the value is going to be in more senior level ideation, right? And, and you know, if you think about it from an advertising standpoint, it's going to be the ideas and the experts that come in with the ideas. And then I think from a high level, like graphic design perspective, it's going to be companies that, that appreciate and understand that design tools like AI and whatever else are not
There's a distinction between designers and design tools, right? AI doesn't understand the science and art behind typography. It can spit out something, but it's all... ⁓
Don (18:23)
Well said. Yeah, well said.
Rob (18:37)
what you're feeding it, right? And if you're not a designer and you're not a trained designer, you don't know what to feed it. ⁓ So I think, yeah, and again, we're off on a tangent, but I think that's what'll happen. I think there'll absolutely be value, but I think it's gonna be the more senior level experienced ideas and designers and photographers and whatever else. I think there'll still be a need for that. I just see the lower level B and C teams kind of being cut out of the mix.
Don (18:38)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Sure, sure.
Yeah, yeah. Or having to be an internal resource, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, it's we're all beholden. We've talked about SEO on this podcast a lot. I mean, we're all beholden to the machines. ⁓ Right. And like, hey, we're all trying to not game the system, but we're trying to work the machines to our benefit. So when a human is searching for something through this magical machine portal, right, we appear.
Rob (19:10)
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, think that's what I think that's what will happen.
Don (19:36)
Right? Pretty soon there's going to be no it's just going to be machine to machine to try to trick us into finding what we didn't know we were what we were looking for. Right. So we don't need those B and C or D level teams anymore because that's all it's all just machine created you know ⁓ content right into like I mean I've sound like some crazy matrix conspiracy theorist whatever you know but like but like yeah I don't you know like you know just hey write a blog.
Rob (19:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (20:03)
write a blog article about this. You know what I mean? It's just, again, I keep saying mediocrity is the new X. It's just content. As soon as we devalued everything by calling it content, it just kind of goes into the tidal wave of stuff that's out there. ⁓ Which, I don't know how to bring that back around again to clients come and clients go. And sometimes it's the most powerful word is no. But ⁓ there is a value to what obviously clients provide and what
Rob (20:16)
Yeah.
Don (20:33)
they do, right? And there's a value to what we do and what we provide for them, right? To help them get to where they want to go. You know, I guess it's kind of under the umbrella of once we get them to where they need to go, right? And are successful. It's time to, you know, fly away little dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (20:47)
Yeah. Well, it's like your kids are, yeah, it's like when the kids go off to college, it's like,
I've done my job. I've, I've hopefully prepared you for success, you know?
Don (20:57)
Yeah, yeah. It's a
weird. It's a weird feeling, you know what mean? And we've been through these battles for decades now, right? And it doesn't make it easier or whatever. Still kind of the same thing, you know, but it's still it's like it's a trip. It's just it is. Yeah.
Rob (21:10)
Yeah. Here's the difference. Here's
the fundamental difference. When your kids go off to college, you don't want them calling you for money. When your clients go away, you kind of want them calling you for money, calling you back and asking you for money.
Don (21:18)
They call you.
Yeah, yeah. That's a very good point. Now that's a very, yeah, you never really
hear from them again. Do know what mean? Although it should be noted that we have had clients move on to other places only to return only to return, right? ⁓ Yeah, absolutely. So I mean,
Rob (21:31)
Hahaha
come back. That's right. And significant, significant ones as well. Yeah, happened just recently.
Don (21:48)
That should be noted too as a testament of how we run the business and what we do and the value there is that like, hey, yeah, you thought the grass. Well, it doesn't even matter the reason why anyone leaves. But it was, hey, what a great phone call I just got. You'll never believe who just, those, I still kind of get a kick out of that. You know what I mean? Like, the boomerang has come back around again. Like, this is awesome.
Rob (22:06)
Yeah.
Well, you you file it under
the file another never never burn any bridges. You never know. But yeah, it's great when clients are gone for, I mean, years and then and then and then hit you back and say, hey, let's get the band back. We always say, let's get the band back together. And we love a reunion tour. We love a reunion tour. ⁓ Yeah, good stuff.
Don (22:17)
No, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, we're doing a reunion tour. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah.
Yeah, it's, you know, it's, I guess it's one of those things, you know, I don't know how many agency podcasts are talking about losing clients, but it is something that happens. mean, clients come and clients go and, ⁓ you know, it's not always a bad thing for both sides of the fence, you know, so yeah.
Rob (22:50)
both sides. For both sides.
So we're turning that frown upside down.
Don (22:55)
Where
can those new clients find us, Rob? Yeah.
Rob (22:59)
That's right. Well, I'll tell you where they can find us.
Um, I presume many of them are listening to this podcast right now. We got to call these guys. Um, they're in need of, they're in need of a new client. So let's call them now. Uh, no, you can find us right on the YouTube's and of course, at mock the agency.com and all the officials were not tough to find. And, um, I think that brings us to an end for one 57.
Don (23:06)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. They know what the hell they're talking about. ⁓
Yeah.
And scene. All right. We'll see you next
Rob (23:28)
and seeing we'll see you back here for one.