Ep. 173 – The Hidden Evolution of Advertising Agencies

Rob (00:00) we're gonna start with a very basic question, right? And so what is an advertising agency? Don (00:06) What is an advertising agency? Rob (00:06) How about that? Don (00:08) there is no standard definition of what is an advertising agency. we just got a request somebody wanted us to print them a t shirt. And I was like, I don't Yeah, we don't we don't just yeah, yeah, Rob (00:13) I was just thinking that same thing. Just one. Just one t-shirt. Don (00:40) All right, episode one seventy three, we're back, Rob. Rob (00:43) 173. Don (00:45) Yeah, we're back. Can believe one hundred and seventy three I say this every every five episodes I think I say that. Like, can you believe we've done as many of the you know, like it's crazy. Rob (00:51) We are the number nine away from the year. Don (00:59) wow. Okay. Rob (01:01) Right? 1973. I know most people thought I was like 30 something, but the secret's out. Don (01:06) Yeah. well if we had started this podcast when we started a million years ago, w we wouldn't have any gray in our beards. You know what I mean? Like so the Rob (01:16) I know. Mine's almost white. I've gone for I've passed gray. I'm looking at it now. I'm I'm what mine's white now. Don (01:21) Yeah. I'm jealous. I mean, I got I got I still got like it's like a half and half. I mean, if it was all white, I feel like it would be badass. You're you you're you're you're getting in there. You're getting into that silver fox territory, you know. So yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's it's falling out on top. So I gotta do what I can do on, you know, and it's growing everywhere else. You know, I got you know, things like that. So, you know, it's the the joy of getting older. Well, ep anyway, episode one seventy three. we gotta start it off with our quick World Cup cap recap because that's what we keep doing. Rob (01:34) Now be careful, be careful what you wish for. It moves around. World Cup recap. Yep, yep. Don (01:54) talking talking about World Cup, right? What's your thoughts? I'm gonna be sad, dude. I mean, we're we're we only have one game left with the final coming up. and I'm gonna be sad when it's all over with. So Rob (02:02) Yeah. Yeah, I think globally, I everyone's going to be sad that it's all up with, except maybe England. They might be glad it's done. Don (02:07) Yeah. Hangover. I can't believe what happened in that game, man. So I I I to me that's snatching a victory from the jaws of defeat, you know. It's I mean that's soccer though. Rob (02:17) Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's the the England Argentina game was yesterday, the semifinal. It was a it was a great match. And, you know, it's easy to, you know, post match, it's easy to. Criticize and blame the coach and to his credit, he took, you know, responsibility and was like, yep, we moved too soon. We shouldn't have put the five in the back and that we should have kept going, going, going, you know, Argentina is dangerous, man. They are dangerous and you. Don (02:36) Criticize, yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and they've done this time and time again. So it's it's like I don't want to say it's inevitable, but you know, you can't park the bus with like thirty-five minutes left, 40 minutes left. Like it it's it's and also too, like I think I saw a stat. I don't know if this is true or not, because you know, read it on the internet, it's gotta be true. Like England had like only 12% possession from the time they scored their goal onward. You're you're not gonna win. Like, yeah. Rob (03:15) the chart, have you seen the chart? Like the chart is crazy. Like you, like it's, it's almost like they just gave the ball, handed the ball away. Like we don't want to. Don (03:22) Yeah, you well, Pickford just kept kicking the ball out of bounds. I mean, it at at least I mean, I I understand don't play through the midfield and try to play direct and this and that, but like you're just pick kicking it straight out of bound, time after time. Like it to me, it like you're not gonna hold on for for almost 40 minutes against Argentina. Like it's just not gonna happen. You cannot seed that. And they again went hair on fire, running around. They got five in the box. I mean, they're all over the place. And England look like they were in quicksand, you know, just like Rob (03:51) Yeah, it was. Don (03:51) walking around waiting for things to happen. I'm okay with defensive subs. I mean, I get it, you know. But like the difference between that game versus the the previous semifinal right where where where Spain won, right? Or the previous yeah, yeah, where Spain won, you know, it's like it's the 93rd minute and Spain is still pressing, you know, France and France can't get out of their back end. Like they're not gonna tie the game up or or win the game if they can't even get out of their their half. You know, so it's like Rob (04:04) Yeah, yeah. Well, and for the first half of yesterday's match, England was pressing like maniacs. They kept it up, they kept it up, they kept it up. And it wasn't a fatigue thing, it was a strategic mishap. I mean, at the end of the day. But I mean, hey, look, Argentina's second come from behind victory in the Benz. So good for them. Don (04:22) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Phenomenal run by England though. Yeah. Who do you have? who do you have winning the whole Shabango? Rob (04:41) Man, it. I don't know, it's you know it's hard to. It's hard to. It's hard to vote against Argentina right now, but I will say Spain looked phenomenal in that game. They are a defensive machine. They they the way that they they possess the ball better than anyone else. I mean, it's incredible. Don (04:48) Hard to go against Argentina. Yeah. I mean Yeah. Yeah. two weeks ago I was like, this is France is the undisputed winner of this thing. Like France is gonna win. I I had all face and faith in France. I mean, it was like just anoint France now. and Spain kicked their ass, you know. so I mean France didn't have any like real threat at all. You know what I mean? So like it's it's I mean, my opinion has changed dramatically. Like, whoa, France knows how to play international tournaments, you know. Rob (05:13) Spain, kick their ass. Yep. Don (05:27) And it's not freewheeling and it's not at at times it's not fun to watch, you know, to your point, it is possession based soccer. But like no one scores on them. Like like ever like I mean, you know, you're not gonna lose if if you don't give up goals, right? I mean, it's it's the old defense wins championship, you know. Like so for me it's hard to it's hard to this is gonna be I I hope it's a good game. I really hope it's a great game. But man, it's hard to go against Spain after what they've done these last few games, you know. So Rob (05:54) Well, it's kind of poetic that you have the most incredible defensive team on the planet and the most incredible offensive team on the planet. So you've got those two things just in a clash in the worst stadium in the United, the World Cup had to offer pretty much. Don (06:02) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be good. Mm-hmm. It's gonna how do you feel about the rumblings now that Infantino said they're like, hey, we're looking at expanding the field even more? How do you feel about that? Rob (06:24) Well, you know, it's tough because on the one hand, selfishly, I'm like, there were so many games this World Cup that it was like, I mean, I loved it. was great. was like, yeah, correct. Right. Correct. Correct. So, but you had so many matches. It was just awesome. I mean, it was awesome. So it's hard to argue against. We get to watch more matches. You know, that's kind of exciting. Don (06:31) Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was the first expanded field. I mean, there there are more, right. Yeah. So we had an extra knock. We had the round of thirty two, which traditionally we don't have that knockout. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, and especially because a lot of these underdog teams that we no one's ever heard of performed really well. Like, yeah, the Cape Verdes of the world and things like like people people played well. Like, so it's hard to make the argument like, they didn't deserve to be there. You know, that that type of thing, right? Because because I mean, I mean, there were some teams that like Rob (06:56) Look what Cape Verde did. I mean... Yeah. They played Spain better than anyone in the whole tournament. I mean, you know, but so yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna argue like it ruins the sanctity of the tournament if you add more team. I don't think it does. So I'm gonna say I'm pro. Don (07:12) Yeah, yeah. Zero zero. Real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna say no. I'll take the contrarian opinion. I think this is good. I like a I like the round of thirty-two because I think it does it does there there is a threshold. There to me, watching this, I mean, God, we all watch so much soccer, it's unbelievable. But you watch so much of it in such a condensed fashion, you really do go, Okay, here are the top here are the top ten teams in the world. And then here and then he and then here's everybody else. You know what I mean? Like it's you know, and you really start to see the stylistic plays of how African teams play versus Kanma Bowl teams play versus you know, like it's very, very interesting, you know. but you get to that round of thirty-two, and to me, all those teams that should have won in the round of thirty-two absolutely won. Like they all made it through the way they you know. So I I I I like this mix, you know. I'd say, let's roll with this for a year, you know, a World Cup or two, you know, and then See where it goes. But I don't know. Rob (08:19) Well, I might have a different answer if it was next year. It was like, okay, we're gonna do this next year. We do the tournament every year and it's expanding, expanding. I mean, we got four years, which means. Don (08:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good point. Good point. Well, we have we have the women's World Cup next year. So we do have World Cup next year, yeah. I but obviously not this field. Yeah. Rob (08:31) We got Women's World Cup next year. But I'm talking about the men's tournament, like, we'll, well, they're not gonna expand it for the Women's World Cup, are they? No. So for the Men's World Cup, we wouldn't have that expansion for another four years. And soccer is like this. So, you know, who knows? Don (08:40) No, no. I know. It's out of control. It's out of control. Well, did you finally see? Cause I've been killing MLS. and I don't even know if I've been killing them on this podcast. I don't know if I even mentioned it or not, you know. But I have been killing MLS on you have the greatest experience ever domestically, and there has been absolutely no advertising, no marketing, no nothing from our domestic league, right? And then I don't know if you've seen it or not, but they have finally rolled out their campaign at the end. It was this the for these past games. Have you seen any of this? Rob (09:15) I haven't, no, I really haven't. Don (09:17) It it basically is thanks world, you know, we'll take it from here. Right. And kind of reannouncing MLS to to people and then a a bunch of like incentive offers to go to games for free, things like that, right? So yeah, I was less than impressed. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. Rob (09:38) Well, think we all know there's that looming like, wow, we just watched the greatest soccer on the planet. And now, uh-oh, this could be about to be a downgrade, especially if you consider how poor Atlanta United has played this season. Then it's even worse. You're like, wow, we're at the bottom of the bottom. Don (09:47) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. and and no one would accuse MLS of being a top flight global league, on on on any stretch. that's not to mean it's not fun, you know. and MLS is kind of unofficial strategy because I I don't really know, but has always seemed to be come to a game, you'll have fun, and then that that's what makes you a fan, right? Almost kind of like the hockey thing. You know, like we have terrible TV distribution, we have but like Rob (10:03) No. Don (10:23) Once you get there, you'll get it. It's fun. Drums are playing. You it's it's a vibe. It's it's it's an exciting experience, you know. win, lose, or draw, right? but I was less than impressed with the all right, thanks, world. We'll we'll we'll kind of take it from here and then like, you know, and then to your point, like, well, our our teams aren't that good. but I will say I think MLS, you know, did pretty well in terms of like goal scorers, you know, in the World Cup. Now it helps that Rob (10:42) Great. Yeah, we represented. We represented. Don (10:50) It helps that Messi scored a bunch of those goals. Let's not, you know, deny that. But you know, it's it's yeah, it's interesting. And actually we have a game before the World Cup final. We have a game later this week, actually. So Atlanta plays Nashville. So and it's gonna be on Fox. It's gonna be on Big Boy Fox, like dis yeah, distributed, yeah. So hopefully a good showing. So Rob (10:53) That's right. Do we play Nashville? Is it Nashville? wow. All right. Well, we'll look forward to that. I'm telling you, the... The celebrations in Atlanta yesterday were insane. The Argentinian madhouse was absolutely, absolutely insane. So sad to see it go. We got a good match on Sunday, so it'll be good. But we're not here to talk about soccer and World Cup. I mean, we can't. Don (11:23) Contingency. Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, I mean, we are for a solid eleven minutes. We're okay with that, you know. But what are we here to talk about, Rob? Rob (11:40) Well, we're gonna start with a very basic question, right? And so what is an advertising agency? Don (11:48) Yeah, the magical world of advertising. What is an advertising agency? Rob (11:50) How about that? It's a lot of different things to a lot of different. Don (11:57) I think, you know, to your to that funny little quippet though, like there is no standard definition of what is an advertising agency. And I think that might be part of the confusion on the other side of the fence, right? I think it is kind of a term that clients or marketing people or entrepreneurs use, right? Thinking like, I need something, and using like advertising agency as a catch-all, right? Rob (11:56) You Don (12:24) for things that may or may not actually be advertising, right? so judging by some of the requests we get, people clearly don't know what advertising agencies do, you know, at least over the years. I mean, we just got a request somebody wanted us to print them a t shirt. And I was like, I don't Yeah, we don't we don't just yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't we don't I mean, I'm hey, I'm glad you found us. It's amazing. we don't we don't print T shirts, you know. So Rob (12:28) Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking that same thing. Just one. Just one t-shirt. Just one t-shirt. Yeah, we don't print T-shirts. Don (12:52) but I think part of that too is part of the reason why I say what I said in terms of maybe there is shopper confusion on that side of the fence, right? Is that we potentially created that shopper confusion on our side by splintering tactics as the last 50 or 60 years have have grown, right? And how technology has changed. I mean, it used to be very cut and dry. I mean, you watch Mad Men and like this is what advertising is, you know? Rob (13:19) Right, right. Don (13:19) I make a product, I have this thing of a jiggy, and I need to get it out in the world. And we got radio, we got newspapers, we got TV, we're out, you know, like billboards and things like that, right? But you had an agency and your agency did everything for you, right? when do you think that kind of vibe? I have my thoughts, but like when do you think that splintering or that fragmentation started to occur of like defining what advertising really is and what it isn't, you know? I mean Rob (13:32) Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's all, I mean, you know, it's always evolved. It's always evolving. It's always evolved. You know, I mean, some decades faster than others as technology curve goes like that. But I also think it, you know, I said it sarcastically earlier, but it is different things to different people. And what I mean by that is, you know, you've got, when you have, let's pick on startups, right? Or smaller companies that come to you, well, they don't have an internal marketing department necessarily. Don (13:51) Yeah. Rob (14:15) So maybe there's a marketing person or somebody who has at least been given the task of doing marketing, whether or not they're a trained marketer or not. Don (14:20) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or they're the the dreaded sales and marketing, right? They're they're trying to try to do both. So Rob (14:25) Dreaded sales and marketing, right. And so in that instance, you know, we have to be flexible and, you know, we've always said, Hey, we're not your in-house marketing department. We're not your in-house. But sometimes we have to be the in-house marketing department, right? When there's smaller companies and opportunities like that, you know, it used to be, to your point, very cut and dry. Nope, I got this thing. I need you to come up with a cool campaign for this. Well, now there's a lot more strategy involved, think, and where I think agencies are relied upon to deliver more of that marketing insight and strategic insight to what they're doing, right? Don (15:05) Mm-hmm. Rob (15:09) I don't think it's as clearly defined by marketing departments. And I'm speaking primarily about, you know, smaller, smaller shops, smaller companies, but there we're expected to know marketing and understand it and even help craft marketing plans and then to pick up the ball sooner basically, right? And then take it across the line and execute the campaign against that. So I think the roles and responsibilities have actually grown over the years. And that can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing too. Obviously you've got your larger companies have, it's probably more traditional in terms of our roles and responsibilities than it was, like it's, they're still, okay, clearly defined, here's what we're doing. But I do think that it's, I think media has obviously played a much more important and challenging role, right? Don (16:07) Mm-hmm. Rob (16:07) in terms of within agencies, you've got the media department, right? Or the media planning part of things. And it used to be, you only got so many options, right? I mean, you got print stuff, you got outdoor stuff, you got radio, you know, eventually. Now it's a whole, it's a whole different ball game. And I think there, you know, with the, with the, you know, evolution of metrics, right? That changed the game because now, Don (16:16) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Rob (16:34) You know, it used to be that ROI was very difficult to track that against creative, right? Don (16:39) Yeah, well or or would take six months to get the numbers in, right? Like it would t it's a slow rolling thing. Rob (16:43) Yeah, yeah, but I mean, you run a newspaper app. Okay, how do you track bottom line sales to that, right? And now, I think with the advent of all these metrics and what we've got now, that's, our feet are held to the fire much more painfully than potentially they were in the past. Don (16:51) Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we live in an Amazon society, right? It's like I ordered it, it said it would be here tomorrow. Why isn't it here yet? You know, like I mean, everybody wants it, boom, boom, boom, you know. So yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. I don't I think I think from my perspective, like you know, if you take kind of graphic design out of the mix, because like if this was the nineteen fifties and you're working with Kellogg's, for example, right? Rob (17:11) Right. Don (17:29) Your agency is going to do your box design and your media placement and everybody buy more cornflakes or whatever the case may be, right? But then you had specialty services of like, well, the design firms are now starting to do things, right? And then those design firms went into like environmental and furniture and other things. So if you kind of remove graphic design, I I agree with you. I think the advent of technology and the splintering off. I mean, we lived through the like, all of a sudden there were all these digital specific agencies. Right. And it was, you don't want the large agencies working on your digital stuff. Those guys are dinosaurs. They don't know what they're doing. You know? And to your point, it's like that was coupled with media. It was coupled with, you know, what's happening with the internet and and getting the reach out and, you know, all these new emerging sort of technology scenarios. Right. which I found rather interesting. And then it just kind of kept splintering from there, which which I find interest. So now you've got like, you know, your trade show firm. we do are trade shows. It's all we do, you know. all we do is search. That's all we you like everything just keeps fragmenting out, right? Or specialties. Or I'm an agency that only works in one specific industry. All we do is healthcare, right? All all we do is package goods. All you know, right? So it it does, it does create confusion, I think, for you know, l as you're saying, those entrepreneurs or that onesie twosie that, you know, they're they know they need help, but they don't exactly know where to go to. Rob (18:39) Yeah. Right. Don (18:54) You know what I mean? Or w what to do and things like that, who to call. And advertising agency is kind of that catch all term, right? When when they don't know what else to search for, right? So Rob (19:05) think also, and you and I certainly remember this because it was right at the time that we started up the shop. But when the economy fell off a cliff in 2008, 2009, what happened then was obviously the ad budgets are the first thing to go. And we lived through that to our credit. And what that did was, Don (19:15) It's a good time to start an advertising agency. Rob (19:30) to your point about fragmenting everything because ad budgets were the first thing to go. mean, agencies collapsed, layoffs were abundant, everybody just was out. And so you then had all of these, you know, oftentimes senior level agency folks, be it media, be it strategy, be it creative, whatever, piecing together these smaller shops. So you had the rise of the small shop and it was not only the rise of the small, so it was, oh, okay, now all of a sudden, Don (19:52) Yeah, it's a really good point. Rob (19:59) I can get what used to be big agency senior level talent in a small shop for a little bit less money. have better access now to good creative. not only that, so you had all those shops pop up and some of those made it and did great and some of them haven't. It's been kind of a mix, but that still very much exists, that landscape of the small independent shops. And also too, I think what happened then was maybe it was a little later, but you had agencies start to go, hey, no, we're going to build a team around what you need. So we're not going to give you the whole sandbox if you don't need it. If you only need media and copywriting, you're only going to get that. You're only going to pay for that. You're not going to. So I think that this idea of building teams around client-specific needs was kind of an evolving trend. And that continues to be, right? And it continues to evolve. Don (20:58) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All excellent points. All excellent points. I do remember the thinning of the herd and a couple of recessions we went, you know, because like client will get our agency will get a new client and they staff up that that client specific needs, right? And then they're gone. You know, and then all those all those people go go back out, you know. we've never really taken that approach, in terms of of, you know, well, if a client comes and goes, do we need to, you know? I know. Rob (21:16) And then you're all, yep. No, that's no way to live. No Don (21:27) I I I know, I know. It's Rob (21:29) way to live. Don (21:30) but we've but we live that I I think because we live through that way, I mean we realize that's no way to live, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. So so there isn't there isn't one good specific answer, I guess. What is an advertising agency? You know, it's is it is it what do you want it to be? Or Rob (21:34) Yeah, that's not the way to do it. I think it is client-centric and it's what do you need from your agency? That's the question to ask and then go to that agency and say, hey, I only need this, this, this, this. I don't need this, this, this and see if they can accommodate that, right? Don (21:51) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and then I think the great relationships and the stellar work that comes out are those are those ones that are true partnerships and are not vendor based, right? even though you build that custom team or use that custom solutions for those people, right? They only need these skill sets. They don't need the rest of the stuff or tactics or whatever that, right? When you get a good partnership, that's when the great stuff happens. versus just hey, I need a t-shirt. I need one t-shirt. Rob (22:28) T-shirt. That'll be $20,000. If you want your t-shirt. I know, right? Don (22:29) Printed by tomorrow. So Yeah, yeah, yeah. maybe that's what we should have sent you know what I mean? Just to see what their reaction. No, no, no. So all right, interesting. Rob (22:39) All right, well, all good discussion. think we've answered the question. Hopefully we've answered the question. Don, tell us where the people can find us, because that's the most Don (22:42) Yeah. Yeah, clear as mud, right? The people can Rob (22:48) important. Don (22:48) find us when they're searching for advertising agencies, they can find us online at mock the agency and at all the socials. Sl whatever it is slash mock the agency. Rob (22:51) Mmm. That's right. All right, very good. Well, we will see everybody next time for episode 174. It's gonna be amazing. Thanks everybody. Don (23:02) Yeah. One seventy-four. All right. Thanks, everybody.