Ep. 153 – The Power of Persuasion

Rob (00:00) I think the truth is that, and you and I learned this a long time ago, but maybe for any young folks out there who are getting into the business, don't be fooled. Meaning you are not entering the business I mean, you are to a degree, but we're salespeople at the end of the day. An idea is only as good as the person who can go in assertively communicate. Don (00:12) Mm hmm. Yeah. absolutely. Absolutely. Rob (00:22) and thereby sell that idea through Don (00:46) All right, we're back, Rob, episode 153. We're back. ⁓ Yeah, exciting times, right? It's always a little awkward. Rob (00:57) That's right. He is excited to ask. We're in the throes of the holiday season, I would say. Don (01:04) We are, we are. There's a lot going on. It's good to stop and take a quick break, do a little podcast, but there is, you know, it's the most wonderful time of the year where you're pulled in 8 million different directions, you know? ⁓ And there's a lot to do before you can take some time off. So there's certainly a lot of the like, ⁓ hey, and it's very fortunate to be busy, of course, you know, but hey, we got to jam it out so we can all take a nice leisurely holiday break, you know? Rob (01:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. It's that weird time between Thanksgiving and Christmas where it's some clients just go dark. And then others go, no, no, no, no, we need it all and we needed, know, what day, how many days are you guys taking off again? Like, you know. Don (01:38) We need it all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, wait a minute. We need all these things at the beginning of the year and we haven't started yet. And there's the hollering like, ⁓ yeah, yeah. But you know, hey, this is the industry we picked, you know, we love it, we hate it, you know, ⁓ just like other people, I assume other people in other careers, you know, have the same feelings love and I don't know. So I always think we're the lucky ones that get to, you know, use our brains and be creative all day. So it's beats an Excel spreadsheet, you know. ⁓ Rob (01:49) Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Don (02:11) So anyway, think ⁓ today's topic, I had a weird little interesting experience about a week or two ago or maybe longer ⁓ about ⁓ something I didn't really realize was advertising but could kind of be advertising, okay? Which is a weird little tangent, if you will, right? We'll call it the power of persuasion, which is I think what advertising is in general, right? I mean, it is the power of persuasion. Sometimes it's about... Rob (02:33) Thank Don (02:39) convincing somebody that they need something whether they need something or not, right? You know what mean? Or just touting the benefits of something as to like, hey, this will improve your life or this will improve your this or your posture or your stress or your vitamins or, know, I mean, it's an improvement aspect of life, right? So, ⁓ yeah, it's a weird one, but I went to a town meeting. Like call it, call it, you know, we all live in random little parts of the world. We have little HOAs, we have town meetings, we've got, ⁓ Big meetings, little meetings, small meetings, right? And a lot of times in your little local area, right? You gotta get together, you gotta vote on things. mean, earlier, last couple weeks, you've been sharing some stories with me about what's going on with your little ⁓ corner of the world, right? ⁓ Rob (03:22) That could be its own whole separate podcast. Don (03:24) That sounds like ⁓ an audio book is what needs to happen over there. yeah, mean, know, neighbors be crazy, right? And sometimes you don't get to pick who your neighbors are. Sometimes you do, but sometimes you don't, right? So anyway, had, ⁓ so hey, we went to the little town meeting to take a look at what's on the agenda and all stuff like that. And you know, I like to educate myself ⁓ on what the topics are, what we're gonna be voting on, just so I'm a little bit more educated going in, not flying blind, right? Rob (03:27) It sounds like the development of a true crime podcast in the. No. Don (03:52) And I think a lot of times you kind of have your mind made up on what you're going to vote on or potentially have in your thought. You know what mean? Like, hey, I'm going to yes on this issue, no one. You know what I mean? Like, how does it affect you for whatever various reasons, right? And I was a hardcore no or yes, I can't even remember what it was on this. I think it was a hardcore no. It was a hardcore no on this one topic, right? And hey, we opened the floor up for discussion. amongst neighbors and there was a guy that got up and gave such an impassioned perspective on the issue, right? From his perspective, right? I'm trying to be sensitive to make sure we're not really sharing like, you know, but. Rob (04:30) Okay. I was about to say, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait we have to share the issue. Everyone's gonna want to know what the issue is. Don (04:42) It was about additional dwelling units on your property. So yeah, well, the concept is it creates, not, I just said I'm educated, but I don't want to get into, I'm an expert on population density and this and that and townships and things and whatnot. But ⁓ yeah, if you bought a piece of land, you have a house on it. I mean, there are rules about how much you can. Rob (04:48) Okay, nothing controversial. This is not controversial. Don (05:08) build and setbacks and all the different things. Everybody's used to that type of stuff, right? Well, the concept of building an additional dwelling unit, an ADU on your property up to a certain square footage, right? But then being able to use that for rental income, right? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so that's where it bleeds into a much larger conversation, right? But hey, imagine your neighborhood. Rob (05:09) Okay. Yeah. Okay, so short-term rentals, we're talking about short-term rental issue. Do we like them or do we not like them is really what we're doing. Don (05:36) And I'm kind of grossly simplifying this, but imagine your neighborhood of everything and then having not twice the population, but if every lot or every house has another house on there, Boom, ⁓ theoretically, you have twice the traffic, twice the people, twice the impact. I mean, it's not gonna happen like that, right? But over time, it's like, hey, well, do we want twice the amount of people in here, And as we are talking about it from a national level, mean, housing price, like things, it's a national conversation, right? Rob (05:46) Yeah. Don (06:05) ⁓ So I was a little, I'm just gonna be honest and say, I was like, no, I don't want extra, like, no, no, no, no, no, let's not be able to build all these extra scenarios, right? ⁓ And yeah, Guy came in, ⁓ very impassioned plea about ⁓ the community and rentals and things like that. And it's not always about ⁓ VRBOs and people partying on the weekend or whatever the case may be, right? Rob (06:16) Right. Don (06:34) And I was like, you know what? I do. totally, I can totally understand and respect that position, know, his position, which completely flipped my vote from a no to a yes. Rob (06:48) Okay, I need to know more about what was his position. I mean, I get his position was, yes, we should welcome this, how did he back up his position? What was the... Don (07:03) He backed up the position by basically taking, I'm gonna put words in his mouth and again, nobody even knows what this is. So I don't wanna speak for the guy by any stretch, know? But it was about, ⁓ there was a lot of affordability of where to live, right? And then, ⁓ the infrastructure of what makes things so special as to where you live, know, your little corner of the world, right? And ⁓ I experienced this, being from San Francisco and things like that, right? Rob (07:07) Sure. Yeah. OK. Yeah, sure. Don (07:32) Property values so far exceed that, I don't want to say like ordinary salaries, right? But you end up with, yeah, you end up with this scenario where no one can afford to live anywhere, right? So that your general baseline infrastructure of what makes a place special, right? ⁓ If everyone has to drive an hour to come, they're not going to do that, that type of thing, right? And it was a good valid point on, it's not necessarily about, Rob (07:39) Affordable housing. However you talk. Yeah. Don (08:02) know, population density and doubling the traffic and doubling the thing or having Airbnbs and things like that. It's about keeping what makes where you live special, you know, along those lines, right? And it was like, I totally get it. You know, I totally get it. As you, someone who grew up here and love this place and things like that. And it wasn't even like, I don't need to go into that, but it was just an impassioned plea. Rob (08:06) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Don (08:29) Right, and so I thought to myself, the power of persuasion, totally worked on me. And I am like, as thick-skinned, hardened, crusted, you're not changing my mind. I I'm making myself seem like I'm very, very grumpy. But it was like, it was just a good, I walked out of there, was like, huh, interesting. The power of persuasion, even on a grizzled advertising veteran such as myself. Rob (08:55) Yeah. Don (08:57) when you do clearly articulate a different perspective, it can absolutely have impact, I guess, which is kind of what I thought about would be interesting for the topic. So anyway, I've been babbling here for like 10 minutes straight. Rob (09:06) Yeah. Okay, well, well, ⁓ I have questions and thoughts. I'll start with a question. Don (09:14) Let me turn it over, Rob (09:17) How did the vote go? Don (09:19) You know, the vote went his way. Yeah, and I would say he brought the whole room with him and I would say it was because of him. I would take a flyer and say I think a predominant amount of people would have voted the no, but him there, you know, it was mostly him. There were a couple other people, you know, but it was mostly this one very specifically well articulated Rob (09:21) Hey, okay. So not only did he persuade you, but perhaps he brought the whole room with him. Don (09:49) passion plea that yeah, it totally, and it was convincing. It wasn't like, I mean it was quick, you know, like I mean it really, it really, it really did it, so. Rob (09:55) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is he looking for work? Don (10:00) No, but I do know where he works because he told everybody he told everybody where he works so. ⁓ Rob (10:02) It's my fault. It's my fault. Well, all right. So I was a couple of thoughts. It was funny when you brought this topic up right before we started. And I was reading an article this morning, believe it not, specifically about communication styles. Yeah. And it was talking about this idea that there are, and I'm looking down at my phone because I had it on my phone and I don't want to mess it up, that there are four different types of Don (10:20) interesting. Okay. Rob (10:36) There is passive communication, okay, which is, and I'm gonna try and paraphrase this, submissive, we yield to what others say, right? We yield to what other people say. We don't express our own opinions as much. We just kind of are passive, right, with communication. There's aggressive communication. Don (10:46) Okay. Okay. Okay, we're all familiar with that out in the world. Yeah. Rob (10:58) which relates to my HOA story, which we'll save for another time. But aggressive communicators are people who come across almost as though they want to start a confrontation or an altercation. They're aggressive communicators. Forcing their opinion or thought down your throat, kind of, is the thought. Then there is ⁓ passive aggressive communication, right? Don (11:09) Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Mmm. Rob (11:23) ⁓ which is, I'm going to read this, we lack the overtly confrontational style seen in aggressive communication, but we often have underlying hostility or anger in how we speak or behave. So, yeah, we're kind of sarcastic and we're kind of... And then lastly, there is ⁓ what this article was saying is the most effective form of communication, which is assertive communication, which is we respect others' opinions. Don (11:34) Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Rob (11:51) But we also believe in our own, right? We believe in our position and we know how to defend our position. We know how to sell our position and we're very assertive in doing so. Don (12:00) Okay. Yeah. It's funny, you said passive and then you had aggressive and I'm like, okay, those are both opposite ends of the spectrum, right? But then I think to myself, assertive and passive aggressive, if it is a string, where would they be on there? But I don't think that's really how it works. I think there are different tangents going out from an epicenter, you know? Rob (12:10) Right. Right. And it was basically talking about how assertive communication is the most effective communication style because you're confident, people believe in what you're saying, you know the subject at hand. And to quote the late great Tom Petty, I won't back down, right? You're not gonna let yourself be beat up. Don (12:35) Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that you're also probably most likely to be heard with that form of communication. Because there is, mean, think about how people react against people's behavior. I mean, if you're coming at somebody aggressively, mean, you know, like, you know, like, you know, know, and then sometimes it's like, I can't even hear what you're saying. Like, I'm not I can't deal with a process. Rob (12:44) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You go on the defensive. Don (13:03) what's happening, because you're kind of coming at me like an attack dog, you know? ⁓ Rob (13:07) And one of the most important traits, it was saying, an assertive communicator is the ability to listen. It's not the communication part, but it's the ability to listen and respect, understand, and I sound like a therapist. Don (13:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've joked for years the easiest way to... Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. We've joked for years that the easiest way to sell a sales guy is just to tell them what they just told you back to them in your own words. And then they're like, yeah, this guy gets it. It's so obvious and hilarious. Maybe I shouldn't say that out loud on a podcast, but it's hilarious to me. Rob (13:32) That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, and I think the truth is that, and you and I learned this a long time ago, but maybe for any young folks out there who are getting into the business, don't be fooled. Meaning you are not entering the business of creative. I mean, you are to a degree, but we're salespeople at the end of the day. An idea is only as good as the person who can go in and assertively communicate. Don (13:57) Mm hmm. Yeah. absolutely. Absolutely. Rob (14:08) right and thereby sell that idea through right there are a jillion different brilliant campaigns, brilliant ads, brilliant designs, brilliant white papers even that never go anywhere because they weren't properly sold through right so we are we are in the business of selling maybe that will deter some people I don't know Don (14:11) Absolutely. 100%. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Rob (14:32) But it is a learned skill. That can dovetail into presentation skills certainly, but it's a learned skill and the power of communication is... Don (14:33) Well, it's. Rob (14:45) is strong. Don (14:46) Yeah, yeah. Based off of my story, putting you on the hot seat here, any random instances where you in your life had a very specific opinion but then were swayed about something, right? Anything come to mind? And if not, it's totally okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just, it's a weird place to be where you've... Rob (15:04) I mean, the answer is yes. I'm just trying to understand where that's happened. Don (15:14) I don't know, we view the world so differently, feel like. I feel like we're very lucky in that respect. ⁓ I'm constantly absorbing all the visual language of the world around me and processing it through a graphic design filter as well, right? And really specifically noodle and noticing things that like 90 % of the people don't notice. And that's not saying I'm great or bad, that's just the way that I see the world. If I was a professional musician, Rob (15:17) Yeah. Yeah. Don (15:43) I would hear the world so differently than the way that I hear the world now, right? Because you're so attuned to all of the keys and majors and minors and how music is constructed and the themes and the, you know, you just view the world through the prism of your own reality, right? So I just found it very startling when, you know, I spend a lot of my day developing designs or concepts or, you know, again, the power of persuasion, right? And then being swayed myself, it's like, wow. Rob (15:47) Right. Yeah. Don (16:12) But actually, it does work, you know? Rob (16:15) Well, it works and it's an entertaining and can be a fun exercise if you ever go down the rabbit hole of YouTube and listening to somebody like there was actually a great, really good documentary ⁓ about Tony Robbins, right? The motivational speaker and love him or hate him or think he's a ⁓ nut job or a brilliant guy. He is a brilliant guy. And if you go watch that documentary and he Don (16:30) Okay. Yeah. One of the most famous, I would argue, right? Yeah. Yeah. Probably a little bit of everything to be quite honest. Yeah. Rob (16:45) He talks about persuasion, he talks about presenting, and he talks about communicating, and clearly he's been very, very successful at it. But it's an interesting watch if you're a fan of documentaries and if you're a fan of communication to listen to that guy talk and go, wow, I that guy talked about selling ice to an Eskimo, that guy can do it. So it's a skill, it's a skill. Don (17:08) He'll do in 30 seconds. Yeah. Yeah, it's even harder nowadays, I think, like, you you learn by doing and we've been doing this for a number of years, right? And, you know, we used to, there's an expression, read the room, right? Read the room, right? Well, that comes from, you're in the room presenting, you know, like, we've done this for so long, like, you're in a conference room, you've got executives who are making decisions that are the farthest from creative imaginable, right? And you have to explain to them why this is, you know, a great idea or whatever the case may be, right? You gotta drag them along with you, right? Rob (17:30) Yeah. Yeah. Don (17:41) But you can read the room and you understand what's working, what's not working, how to duck dodge and dive and adjust your presentation accordingly. It's changing so much, right? The level of communication, all through our phones. You had your phone up earlier, all through our phones, right? But like today I had, ⁓ we had a logo presentation to a client. It's a grid of nine black boxes on, yeah, it's a grid of nine black boxes. Rob (18:05) On the screen. Yeah. Yeah. Don (18:10) on teams, right? Rob (18:12) Right. Don (18:14) I've got my camera on. I always have my camera on. I don't know. I just gesticulate and I do whatever I do. I don't, I don't, it's not like, oh, they have their camera. I'm going to turn it off. You know, it's just too late. I just leave my settings the way that, you know, it's damn near impossible to read. You can't read the room. You can't read the room at all. It's insane. So the communication style has changed in the past few years, right? Rob (18:29) Can't the Zoom room. Can't read the Zoom room. No. Yeah. Yeah. Don (18:39) There used to be, you know, we're pretty casual guys. And it was like, hey, interrupt us jumping, you know, like there's, we're having a conversation about what we're doing. It's, not a pompous, worthy advertising people sit there and listen to us talk for an hour. You know, it's, it's very, I like being very collaborative and you like being very collaborative as well. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And again, like we're the fun meeting of the day. This is great. Everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it should be fun. I mean, it's serious and strategic, but like, Rob (18:53) It's show and tell. We treat it like show and tell. It's great. I was going to say, what do we always say? Welcome to the fun meeting. Yeah. Don (19:07) You know, it's a good interruption sometimes for clients on their side of the fence, that, we're talking, we're reviewing creative, right? ⁓ I have definitely changed my presentation style, and I'm sure you have as well, when you've just got a black screen, you know, looking back at you, right? In that it's harder to solicit, you know, intermediate feedback in the middle of the pres, you know, I find myself just kind of going through the entire present, you know what I mean? Cause like, Rob (19:28) Yeah. Yeah. Don (19:33) and not pausing like if somebody wants to interrupt great but most of the time people aren't you know and then I'm thinking to myself halfway are they just do they have the presentation up and they're just you know like because everybody's on mute right I mean it's weird man it's weird yeah Rob (19:42) Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, is is kind of weird. And sometimes it's better. Yeah, then especially if half the people have their cameras turned off. And you're like, ⁓ anyone listening? Are you even there? It's weird. Don (19:53) Yeah. Yeah, you can't tell what's going on. It's a trip, man. It's a trip. But yeah, the communication style has changed. And then you kind of get to the end and you're like, all right, let me open it up for whatever. then and sometimes people use little emojis, hearts and things that they like or whatever, you know, and then you get the feedback at the end. But it's a trip not being able to kind of read the room in the middle of what's going on, you know, so. Rob (20:14) different. I will say one of the positives about it, if there is one, is I can have notes. I often have my notepad right here and I can look down and read my notes and it's not. That at least I think is a positive potentially. But you're right. And I also don't like when someone's presenting and Don (20:23) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rob (20:43) we're looking at whatever it happens to be, whatever the presentation is, whether it's a spreadsheet or a logo presentation, you can't see the person presenting it. You're just looking at the actual work and hearing it. you can't, because you have to read body language and you can tell when people, it's more than just the tone of someone's voice, right? It's visual cues and all of the things and yeah, it's... ⁓ Don (20:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a new world of communication. I think that's why it was so startling and why I even thought about it for a pod, Was an in-person presentation in front of hundreds of people, had an effect, had a persuasive effect. And we don't do that as much as a community. We don't do like those larger type things anymore, right? It's either we're being talked at by our phones or our TVs in terms of ads or messages, you know, but it is. Rob (21:10) It is a new world of communication. Yeah. Yeah. Don (21:39) It is a different world for narratives and communications in that respect. So anyway, interesting, right? Yeah, seriously, seriously. But hey, man, we can wear pajamas to work. I am for that, to be quite honest. So yeah, that's why we're not doing this in the same office, right? Rob (21:46) Thanks pandemic. Thanks a lot pandemic. I'm not wearing pants. I haven't worn pants on any of podcasts, which is great. It's incredible. Just hope I don't stand out. All right, very good. Don (22:04) All right, well, where can everybody find us to change our minds about topics? Rob (22:08) Yeah, I mean, you can see us on the YouTubes for the full episodes. You can catch us on the socials and you can catch us at MockTheAgency.com, of course, and find us. Don (22:16) Sounds good. All right, we'll chat next time everybody. Rob (22:19) Alright, bye.